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Electrical
PostPosted: 12/04/2006 at 6:48 PM    Post subject: Making an aluminum neck.

I try to use ALCOA T6061 as it polishes the best, but Hulett is a good substitute. Everything on the necks is milled, nothing is spun on a lathe. The neck profile program is about 1 million lines long and takes about 25 minutes to run. There are 9 individual operations in each neck. Some are done CNC and others are done on a manual Bridgeport mill. The neck blanks weigh 22lbs at the beginning and 3lbs when complete. Everything is drafted in AutoCAD and then transferred to MasterCAM for the special operations. It is possible to draw in MasterCAM, but sometimes it can be a giant headache. MasterCAM is just a computer aided machining program that will take complicated 3-d drawings and transfer them into the G-code programming of a CNC. Yes this can be done by hand, but you'd be there for quite sometime. Alot of people think that a CNC made part is somehow less hand made than a manual one. In part this is true because once right it will run and repeat and infinite number of times, but you still have to make the first one right. The machine only does what you tell it and if you cant tell it, it wont work. They are great machines, but they can be the most frustrating things sometimes. This just happens to be where the technology is now.

My guitar necks are solid as are the Baritones. The bass necks are channeled with an aluminum fretboard. The hollow bass neck adds a bit more of the growl that I like. The old Beans had small channels and sounded great, but the new Beans channels are big and I just prefer that sound over the solid or smallish channels. The walls in fact of the reissue Beans are .125- .09, which is really thin, but they are also made of T7075 which is really strong compared to T6061.

I hope this helps out some.
Thanks,
Kevin






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Barry Bergeron
PostPosted: 12/04/2006 at 10:08 PM    Post subject:

thanks for the info Kevin

i guess everyone expects the aluminum guitar neck story to be a story about machine tools, and maybe especially CNC. am i correct in understanding the early Kramers, Beans and Veleno were cast? i did read that the new Beans are all machined. i'll bet every wooden Peavy is CNC machined also - several at a time. seems to me that it is an excellent idea to use to CNC's capability to give the player more precision. aluminum means that the precision could be perminant. probably not true for wood.

we CNC machine everything - and carefully - as it is possible to end up with temperature dependant warping if you aren't carefull. we have tried several alloys and neck designs - from solid to .1 wall thickness. we have asked the best local players that we can get to assess the sound difference. there must be a difference, but i have no definitive concensus to give you. ask ten different players, probably get ten different answers. in time a concensus may emerge. i read that the new Beans are made from 7075 aluminum. it is generally the strongest alloy, but worse for the plater. 6061 is still hugely strong and the metal finishers can deal with it nicely. we base our design on 6061, but we do use a variety of alloys by the time we are done. my partners get antsy when i start talking shop like this, but we do know that you all already know these things. without getting too specific i can say that we use equipment and procedures that is pretty much like you all do. if you want more specifics, email me.

i would point to one feature of the Bergeron guitar that might matter here. the Bergeron is a neck through design. this matters because of it's contribution to tuning stability. tune this guitar when it is warmed up to hand temperature, and every time it comes back to hand temperature it is in tune. i am talking about weeks if you don't change the strings.

our necks start out as 24 pound stock, and end up at 3 pounds. they require 10 hours to machine, but that is just the beginning of the story. many parts make up our necks. we make every part of the Bergeron. we buy only the electronics


did i stray too much from the subject? what did i miss?

thx
Barry

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Electrical
PostPosted: 12/04/2006 at 10:44 PM    Post subject:

The Kramers were forged cast, basically a big machine stamped the hell out of a cast blank and then you have the basic neck. The Beans were all T6061 spun on a lathe then split in 2 to make 2 individual necks. If you have never seen the inside of an old bean, whoever was machining was machining alot. very very good design. Velenos necks were cast of ALMAG 535. Its a good alloy Ive had good experience with. His bodies were Reynolds T6061, 2 3/4 slabs in the begining and sometime around 170ish he changed to a 1 inch and .25 piece, eliminating the need to have an oversized bolt holding on his neck to access the electronics. Of all Velenos impressed me the most. He is a genius in every sense of the word.

The new Beans were cut from a 110lbs block of 7075. The entire neck and back were one piece. This guy Kelly Condon who machined them is a total artist, amazing work. I dont say that lightly and I believe those were Beans exact words as well.




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gse
PostPosted: 12/04/2006 at 10:56 PM    Post subject:

i remember seeing an unfinished aluminium neck on ebay some time ago which looked like what your describing with the beans (the two necks made at once then split) it looked kinda cool, like an aluminium bed post. it was withdrawn from sale i believe. would this have been done for convinence or would doing 2 at once be much easier to spin on a lathe and is it less likely to suffer any heat distortion from machining.

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Electrical
PostPosted: 12/04/2006 at 11:37 PM    Post subject:

Its just any easier way to make a production neck. You can make a jig to swing 1 neck at a time, but with this method you can chuck up on a 4x4 chunk of billet and get 2 just as easy. heat distortion doesnt really come into play much. Good thick coolant will fix that and aluminum is pretty forgiving, but if you heat it too much you can change its properties. It becomes gummy. This is the problem with welding aluminum. Billet will spring on its own anyway, once you take a massive cut and un clamp it, it will distort. Once you get most of the mass out of the way it tends to stay put better.

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Barry Bergeron
PostPosted: 12/05/2006 at 06:20 AM    Post subject:

one thing is sure. many ways to approach a task. i could be wrong, but i understand that the new Beans and Velenos are cut basically by means of surface machining. i remember seeing somewhere that the first Velenos were 17 t0 22 pounds. i believe their site says that they are at 8 or 9 pounds. the Beans are much lighter now but all of this weight reduction is at the expence of much more work.

curious about one thing. how do you cut the slots for the fret wire tang? this looks nontrivial for aluminum.

there is video of Mark Farner playing his Veleno on Youtube. looks just as cool as i remember it live. it's almost a different guitar than the one displayed for promotion on the Veleno site.



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Electrical
PostPosted: 12/06/2006 at 12:11 AM    Post subject:

What do you mean by surface machine? They started out as plates and were cavred to their final dinemsions. All Velenos weigh about the same. The first 3 were lighter due to the bodies and necks being cast, he then changed to milling the bodies. Ive read the new Beans took 72hrs of machining. I cant find the article again, but i dont doubt it due to the tool paths inside.

There a very subtle diffences in the Veleno bodies over the years. I guess all added up it did change quite a bit from begining to end.



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Barry
PostPosted: 12/06/2006 at 07:40 AM    Post subject:

Kevin

after a quick and dirty check of the Veleno site, i found no reference to weight at all. the site did say that the guitars have changed little over time. sorry about the mistake. i did find find an article http://www.vintageguitar....../brands/details.asp?ID=63 that said the guitars weigh out at 8 & 1/2 pounds.

by "surface machining" i mean the time consuming task of instructing the machine tool to produce the theoretical finished shape as closely as it can. this is a critical seperate step added finally to the other machining operations. sounds like the Bean company might be making their guitars using this method. 72 hours on the Beans? i don't think this sounds excessive to me. my our guitars may well take this much time. i'll have to check on this.

Barry

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Electrical
PostPosted: 12/07/2006 at 11:17 PM    Post subject:

I guess your meaning the final cleanup/finish pass, which goes without saying. You can machine and machine to get a fabulous finish off the mill, but you can get just as good and save alot of time with less milling and a bit of hand work. The new Beans were this way, it was machined then hit with light sand paper(dont know what) and polished. They are shiny, but there is alof of surface distortion and no matter how much you machine, this will not go away without lapping or hand sanding. Either way, your final dimensions will change a bit due to proper dressing and finish. I think they could have shaved hours off final milling by taking wider passes and doing 30 minutes of hand work with a DA.

The Velenos looked to be machined with a 3/4 rougher and a 3/4 finsher. On a tracer mill you can have an old version of cutter comp by changing you stylus and not the cutter. Theres a book called "Strange Guitar Stories" that has a Veleno section. Thats were the weight and first cast bodies came from. Dont worry though no mistake made, at first glance they look the same, then youll start to notice differences especially from start to finsh. Theres a really nice Veleno on ebay right now.



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MetalNecks
PostPosted: 12/07/2006 at 11:31 PM    Post subject:

Here is the Veleno on eBay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eB.....7069&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1

She is a beauty.

MetalNecks

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JPBarnette
PostPosted: 12/27/2006 at 10:15 PM    Post subject:

(humming) I wanna be a big fish--- In a small pond

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Allan P
PostPosted: 03/17/2007 at 06:32 AM    Post subject: finishing aluminium necks

I am making an aluminium neck as a one off project for myself. This is a one piece neck made in 6063 T5 and I'm looking idealy for a gold finish to it, failing this a nice polished natural finish like the Veleno's would be nice. A few of questions:

1. How do I get these types of finish?

2. Can I install the frets first to avoid damaging the finish when I come to dress them? Or is this not possible prior to finishing?

3. Truss rod or no truss rod? The necks on my Kramers are solid as a rock, but is there a real reason why Vacarro's use rods other than perhaps (i assume) there is less aluminium in there? It's not too late for me to change things around and fit a truss rod.

4. Fret wire. Is good quality ordinary fret wire OK or is there something better like the frets on my Kramers available out there?

5. Adhesives. Epoxy OK for glueing in fret markers?

Allan

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hogrot
PostPosted: 03/19/2007 at 11:27 AM    Post subject:

anyone see the picture on the electrical guitar co. myspace where Kevin, opulent bean collector that he is, has 4 reissue basses laid out side by side. I won't even pretend that I've come to terms with my jealousy.

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Barry Bergeron
PostPosted: 03/19/2007 at 12:56 PM    Post subject:

Allan

why would you want a truss rod. for adjustment? a good guitar neck is made from aluminum and never goes out of adjustment. the aluminum neck does not need a truss rod to add the sttength that wood lacks. the truss rod is a fix for a problem that need not exist. build you neck right and you don't need it.

i make my frets from hardened stainless. i ask a premium price for my guitar, and i build 'em to last. no way will i install brass/nickel fretwire the will likely be past usability in 10 years. other than that - perhaps Dunlop fret wire?

gold finish - real gold plating is not as expensive to apply as you might think. it is so soft and fragile that in time it will wear off just from your hands. titanium nitride can look just like gold and is rock hard. also the color can be altered. -stunning.

i hear alot of you on this forum talk about polishing the aluminum. can any of you consider the dull gray of aluminum oxide to be beautiful. after a while is gains a slightly irradescent patina. include finger stains on the fretboard, scuffs and stratches and you have more character than any reproduction Rory Gallager Strat. aluminum oxide is bullit proof.

we have test many epoxies. all that we have tested are exellent. for any of them the aluminum surface must be properly prepaired. anodize or chromate.

Barry

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Kevin
PostPosted: 03/21/2007 at 01:45 AM    Post subject:

i personally wouldnt use T6063, that stuff is really gummy and mainly used for pipe that needs to be bent. My shop had a mix of from ALCOA and the sent that instead of 6061 and its was a mess. Whenever youd take a cut it looked like the T1000(liquid metal terminator) after it got shot. I would stick to 6061, 7075 or ALMAG 535.

Veleno gold annodized his necks for the most part, Ive seen one that looked to be the 14k gold plated. Im not a big fan of plating in general, even less with a neck. As for polsihing, its all in the wrists. Youll need everything from 80- 2000 grit sand paper and some good polish.



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Shane
PostPosted: 05/02/2007 at 4:22 PM    Post subject:

I want to build an aluminum guitar in my metals class by the end of the school year i dont know if thats even posible, i dont have any plans, dont know how much it would cost all i have to use it the shop is a medium sized manual lathe, med manual mill, a tiny computer assited lathe and mill umm and plasma cutter orignaly i was think of a hollow bodied guitar made form some thin steel and fill the body w/ that like aresol foam but i couldnt figure out if the body would handle the string tension and i couldnt tfigure out how to build the neck so basicly if any one could help me come up with plans that could posibbly work with whats given and still be in my price range (I work partime and Mac Donalds) that would really help me.

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Greg Bailey
PostPosted: 05/04/2007 at 7:58 PM    Post subject:

HI!

Yeah, you can do that in your class with that equipment, as long as you also have a good vise and some files. I do A LOT of filing on my guitar necks. You can email me if you'd like with any questions as you go along and I'll tell you anything except my deep dark secrets!

The foam is an interesting idea, I thought about filling one of my hollow necks like that because I was afraid that the fingerboard would be inconsistant, but I've not had any problems, so I don't use the foam, but in a hollow body, it could be real interesting to see what it does.

You can use thin metal for the body, I have, actually my first guitar was built at the trade school I was attending. If you want, you can go to my site to see that guitar, it's the one that's laying on the broken glass. It's here on the "About Bailey Custom" page.

http://www.baileycustomguitar.com/about.html

As for that thin metal, use aluminum if you can. You'll want to save on weight. Even a hollow body of any type of steel could heavy.

Anyway, I'll help you as much as I can, just don't come back and run me out of business!!!!!

Greg

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tone
PostPosted: 09/18/2007 at 12:17 PM    Post subject: anodize

I need to epoxy a phenolic fretboard to my aluminum neck. Any alternatives to anodizing. If not how can I anodize or find someone to do it for me?

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Greg Bailey
PostPosted: 09/18/2007 at 12:46 PM    Post subject:

I don't know where to get anything anodized, but I've never actually HAD to get it done. For my aluminum parts, I just buff them out bright. Just scuff up the aluminum and phenolic before you glue them up.

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Barry Bergeron
PostPosted: 09/18/2007 at 12:48 PM    Post subject: glue surfaces on aluminum

possible choices are - anodize, chromate, sandblast, beadblast, rough sand with abrasive paper. what you need is a tooth on the aluminum for the glue to grab. all of these surfaces will give you this. mill spec is chromate or unsealed anodize.

Barry

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